Seperate liberations.

Once again pigeons travelling south plough into us, Due to smaller groups instead of being a force to fear nothing.We are a set of small groups at the mercy of all and sundrie. Ours were liberated 4th yesterday 3 times the young birds had the indignity of banging against the fronts of the basket as the other groups broke free. Its not the fact we were 4th thats not relevant someone else will be 4th for the next 3 weeks. North and South was ok when it suited with the old birds . Come on lets think of why this WDA was formed and do right for all. JPM cGOUGH.

Comments

Totally agree but too many selfish people only interested position for advantage .i was talking to a pigeon man last night 20birds back from 80 sent this man is a good flyer as well enough said.Yes odd flyers had good returns most haven't .Look at velocity difference one club was nearly 100 yards per minute to fill 10 positions

Sorry Alan Todd
Winlaton H.S

Totally agree Joe Newcastle Fed were up 45 mins before AP/TD the birds were on the same transporter if you liberate your own pigeons 1 basket at a time watch how stressed the YBs become trying to get out this cant be doing them any good.It's called the Amalgamation for a reason lets make it one.
A Brown Annfield Plain

the birds should be all libbed together, no ifs or buts about it, at least they will all be heading north. Most people no doubt train within the west durham radius and the birds should find their way home once in the area of training. I bet there are not many who have not trained to scotch corner or beyond. Its a disgrace what happened yesterday, can't lib until others have done so, if thats the case then wait a couple of hours and let the birds settle down a bit.these birds should have rattled in yesterday and the opposite happened. well done, hope they rally home but i think not, probably at the other end of the country by now. totally peed off with what has happened, six months work, care and attention shot to bits.

Agree wholeheartedly with whats been said.
There are too many fanciers who think racing should be like a training chuck - all coming straight out of the south straight to their door/let and all in, done and dusted (Even better if theirs come on a good line giving them and their club an advantage in the fed - not so good for others though).
Great "when it works" - not so great when lofts have their yb teams absolutely hammered though. Year after year it always happens to at least one of the smaller liberations.
Each year the birdage is dropping and the liberations getting smaller and more at risk of getting a bad race through clashing.
I heard the Newcastle lads had a really bad race with many birds missing - sorry to hear it. Also heard of a good few pigeons missing in other clubs and feds. I hope they work their way in for you all but unfortunately we seem to find that doesn't happen like it used to.

C Wright

It wont be long before we start going through the annual drawn out process of proposing race programmes and young bird groupings resulting in arrangements that many of the membership disagree with, although arrived at by a democratic process.
This year meetings were still going ahead re yb groupings in June which resulted in a fed having to be liberated on their own against their wishes I believe. This should never happen and that fed be left out on a limb. This is what I heard but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Is it time for a fresh look at how we do things?
Many members think that as we are an amalgamation and as such we should be all liberated together and have safety in numbers. Others think there is a benefit to their birds in splitting into groups. But where does this end - 4 liberations with 1 of them being about a 1,000 birds and another about 2,000 birds (guesstimate) which in my opinion is really unsatisfactory and leaving those birds in a vulnerable position.
Going back to my question. I would like to see a working group set up, to come up with a number of thought out proposals based on birdage and geographical location and also not forgetting transport arrangements.
For example all 10 feds with total birdage; 5 north feds/5 south feds with corresponding birdage; 5 east feds/5 west feds etc. These proposals would ideally be put to a vote to individual members. This should get us to a decision which more accurately reflects the wishes of all members.
Just an idea but I think we need to take a long hard look at how we move forward with decreasing members and birdage.

C Wright South Moor

Can't disagree with whats been said but you have to remember its the members that decide groups etc, some want North&South others want East&West, Some feds won't be liberated with other feds full stop. some won't change because the ybs will come in on a different line. at the end of the day winning is more important than the welfare of the ybs. We might as well go up all together, my ybs will come out of the North but at least they will come. We are now getting to the point where members are afraid to send their ybs to the first race, the weathers been ok for the last couple of weeks for training so why did so many not send.
We have a 3 man committee for the weather, We have a 5 man committee for an emergancy, maybe its time to have a committee to run the WDA FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PIGEONS AS WELL AS THE MEMBERS, LOSS OF YBS IS LOSS OF REVENUE, we loss a lot of ybs we loss a lot of money, THINK ABOUT IT

We certainly need something Brian but as you point out it is easier said than done as feds only seem to agree to disagree. If we can't come up with a workable solution to the problem and If we can't agree on a way forward then perhaps the simplest and best way forward is to go back to a single liberation as you suggest.
If any feds are unhappy with that decision and they still want to be liberated separately, then they should be allowed to do so with the proviso that they are liberated separately for the whole of the young bird programme and after the main group - this was a suggestion of a clubmate which sums up his feelings on the matter

It wont be long before we start going through the annual drawn out process of proposing race programmes and young bird groupings resulting in arrangements that many of the membership disagree with, although arrived at by a democratic process.
This year meetings were still going ahead re yb groupings in June which resulted in a fed having to be liberated on their own against their wishes I believe. This should never happen and that fed be left out on a limb. This is what I heard but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Is it time for a fresh look at how we do things?
Many members think that as we are an amalgamation and as such we should be all liberated together and have safety in numbers. Others think there is a benefit to their birds in splitting into groups. But where does this end - 4 liberations with 1 of them being about a 1,000 birds and another about 2,000 birds (guesstimate) which in my opinion is really unsatisfactory and leaving those birds in a vulnerable position.
Going back to my question. I would like to see a working group set up, to come up with a number of thought out proposals based on birdage and geographical location and also not forgetting transport arrangements.
For example all 10 feds with total birdage; 5 north feds/5 south feds with corresponding birdage; 5 east feds/5 west feds etc. These proposals would ideally be put to a vote to individual members. This should get us to a decision which more accurately reflects the wishes of all members.
Just an idea but I think we need to take a long hard look at how we move forward with decreasing members and birdage.

C Wright South Moor

You see once again this topic has turned to accomadate those whoes plan is to disrupt. As Clive Wright points out anyone who wants a single liberation have it but after the main lot has gone and you have it the full program . The tail is wagging the dog. Including the YB National. .

i know of a fancier having a yb reported on sunday in Oxford, what does that tell you. the libs before us heading south have dragged them away. totally agree with Clive, north feds and south feds at the very least or all together. Once libbing starts i bet them transporters are pandemonium with the others wanting to go, now we need to heed the dreaded ybs setting in after the stress of it all. after this weekend i am starting to think about stopping some ybs to keep for the future before we are cleaned out, something which i have never done. good luck all on your returns, i hope my seven rally in but I'm not pinning too much hope on it if they have went south.

Why not fly old hens as well for first few races to help keep the batch heading in the right direction. Even have them all up together but hens in separate race or open. I think this will help save a lot of inexperienced youngsters from straying off the line of flight.

peter matthews's picture

Only 2 south road libs on our site and none north of us their 1st went at 7am the 2nd went at 10 pm all our birds clearing well in a northerly direction,would have liked to go at 7am. But UNC at wether by up at 7am,715,7.30.NN Amal at 7.45,UNC at pointefract at 7.45. That why we started at 8am. I sent 24 birds dropped 3 all coming out off the back, I think my other 3 will be in Northumberland,me personally would prefer 1 lib but it will not happen. Can you tell me joe who Southern lib we hit please. And I will ring them ask for a few details lib time , lib site, destination, and what sort of race. Please replay then can sort these things out for next week , I'm only aware of the 2 on our site.1 550 birds to Leicester 7am lib , 500 birds Peterborough at 10 am, both clearing well getting a good race as I have spoke to 1 of them on Sunday. Peter Matthews chief cony voter.

Im not privy to whoes birds came over us heading south, But suffice to say a substantial amount were seen. I dont see why a single liberation cant happen. We was caned in 2013 and were being caned again in 2014. I work hard to bring a competive team to the race point. To have them destroyed. You need to vote one of two ways all up together or front and back.

peter matthews's picture

As I said no libs north of ours going south,could only be ours or combine coming back over. I agree with you on the single lib. To many Feds want differant libs unfortunately. Hope it better this week and the birds have learnt from it. Peter matthews

From Short Westerly race points the North and South split is disastrous for the shortest flying Fed in the WDA without adding any east in the wind.
Last year it took over 30 minutes from Wakefield (approx 60 miles) to get 20 places on the Fed sheet filled when we had a North and South split imposed on us, and that was in a South East wind!

The North and South split virtually wiped out Sacriston Federation on the same day. It has been stated at WDA meetings that Sacriston Fed will miss any race if they are told they are being libbed in a North and South split due to the losses from the last time it was imposed on them.

Front or back is not the only option. The other sensible option is "high side and low side".... A split doesn't have to be 5 and 5 Feds, the logical split is 6 for the High Side and 4 for the low side.

Annfield Plain, Cockfield, Consett, Crook, Tyne & Derwent and West Durham Feds as the High Side grouping,

Darlington, Deerness Valley, Sacriston and Newcastle as "Low Side" grouping

The pigeons you saw coming back over Annfield Plain Joe are probably the ones from Darlington Fed etc. who missed town completely and went through the West Durham Federation and carried on along with the pigeons for the Deerness Valley and Sacriston Feds.

Nothing came through here from the first lib, the first 6 in our club were to one loft and that members first 9 pigeons all arrived in ones and came on their own.
From 59 miles it took 14 minutes to get 10 pigeons home in the club.
Members of our Club and the Railway Institute got their first arrivals from a batch exactly 15 minutes off the Fed topping pace.
With pigeons from the next liberation, not from our lib, that should tell you they are not getting away cleanly.

hi stuart i agree with those groupings,in my opinion their should be 2 liberations any that dont agree liberate them last each week.what i cant understand is at the wda meetings no one from the main group wanted newcastle in with them.at the specail meeting to try and resolve AP and TD FEDS still didnt want want to be libbed with them which would have given them another 1,500 bds,cockfeild fed agreed to have them libbed with us for one race then the other groups do the same but that fell on deaf ears by all other 8 feds.we have raced pigeons for nearly 40 years now and as far as i can remember we have nearly always had groups and wernt libbed till mid morning.we never seemed to have heavy losses then.FROM the times we did have them all up together we might as well of turned our lofts round (north).JOE and CLIVE why did AP not want newcstle in your group to make it a bigger group.we were libbed 3rd,in our club 365 bds after speaking to members their is only about 20 birds missing.ourselves sent every thing 54 .48 at clocking.2missing (1reported at malton along with a cr and a con bird).2013 we put a proposal on wda agm to have a race committee to set programme and libs,never got any support.

It seems the nature of the beast. Someone in todays world will get them off the back. This is rich it would seem to me as long as the 3 cs are up together the rest can go shoot. I have no right to inflict my views onto anyone and by the same token no one has the right to inflict ther views on me. I am not a champion,Last year the losses were huge. Birds out in the north sea, i dont have to tell you, you were there. Pigeons all over the place with stress related virus. ive had phone calls from peaple apploading this topic. If this one will not be up with that one we will see you in the 5th race.As for the groups its been on about 16 years give or take. I am saddened to see the great WDA reduced to this and that. the mighty UNC 4 different racepoints. Is this next.

peter matthews's picture

Take federation points off 1st 4 young bird races and no one will want groups. We had 3 birds in a hour but got all bar 3 by night.same every year. Most on high side the same.we one of westerly lofts only see our own birds on race days. We don't expect birds over our loft,people on hear complaining about birds going past 2 miles away,the same line will be 8 miles to us.it never going to happen where the birds go over everyone's loft.these are young birds.people at ferryhill see our birds,will be 15 miles away and breaking back up into our area.

I Spoke to Dave Powers yesterday birds gave been reported as far south as Essex a lot down that area so something took them that way

I read all this last year and will most likely read the same next year unless members get to meetings and vote for the benefit of the pigeons for a change.
I think young birds are becoming the biggest challange to the continuation of Pigeon Racing and all we do is point fingers of blame at each other and complain that we should be doing this and that.
Its time to elect a committee to run the WDA thats not tied by club and fed proposals but run on decisions by the committee for the benefit of all the members and the welfare of the pigeons
You need to elect onto the committee people with an unbiased opinion of whats needed and without a fear of implementing a policy that some will be against.
I keep saying democracy doesn't work in pigeon racing, theres too much apathy and that leaves everything open to those that are only SELF, SELF, SELF
Try the elected committee for a year, lets be fair it can't get any worse and if you keep doing what your doing you will keep getting what you've got
I've flown pigeons in the WDA FOR 44 years and the best decisions I have seen in all that time is the election of the Weather Committee and the Emergency Committee a major move forward
ITS TIME TO MOVE FORWARD AGAIN

Totall agree but make sure the people appointed are not about themselves which will be difficult yo do
Alan Todd

THE MEMBERS OF WDA WOULD DECIDE.MY OPTION WOULD BE A COMMITTEE OF 5.FOUR OF WHICH WOULD BE VOTED ON,THE 5th WOULD AUTOMATICLY BE P.MATHEWS.OTHER MEMBERS WOULD HAVE TO PUT THEIR NAME FOWARD TO B.FORD THEN A SHEET WITH ALL NAMES ON SENT TO EVERY CLUB SO EACH MEMBER OF WDA CAN VOTE ON THE CANDIDATE THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE PART OF RACE COMMITTEE,THE FOUR WITH THE MOST VOTES TO BE ELECTED.THIS COMMITTE WOULD SELECT RACE PROGRAMME TAKING FINANCE INTO CONSIDERATION AND YOUNG BIRD LIBERATIONS.THIS WOULD ALSO MEAN LESS WDA MEETINGS.I PERSONALLY THINK THAT WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS WITH HOW THE WDA IS BEING RUN AT PRESENT AND LETS HOPE WE CAN ALL PULL TOGETHER AND GO ONE STEP FURTHER.THE OLD SAYING LETS MOVE WITH THE TIMES.

Hi Richard

Apologies for delay in responding to your question re AP fed. Our delegate was mandated to secure the largest liberation he could. In theory this should have been a Newcastle, T&D and AP group. Unfortunately 2 things happened to prevent this. From what was reported by our delegate the Newcastle delegate wasn't at the meeting when the groups were initially decided and T&D would have went for a North/South lib but not a smaller lib with Newcastle. This left our delegate no option to go with T&D.

We did not get to have a fed meeting before the special meeting to discuss what could be negotiated at that meeting.

Personally I believe its appalling that Newcastle were made to go on their own and if I was a member of Newcastle I would be questioning if the WDA was the right organisation for them after this treatment.

I would have preferred it if AP fed had agreed to lib with Newcastle in the hope that T&D would have then re-joined that liberation rather than be on their own.

But this wasn't the case leading to the problems we now have.

I agree we need to move forward and its about finding the best way to do that

Clive Wright

Looking back through the hand books it looks like just about every combination of groupings has been tried (My Dad & Uncle have saved them since 1963 although I didn't start racing until the early 70's). The early sixties was interesting. All feds up on their own inland for obs and ybs with except of yb nat and longest ob - apart from 3c's libbed together. All libs 10 mins apart. Then through the years so many changes and groupings.

However I can't re-call nowhere near the amount of bad races and losses then that we have now. There would be the odd bad race and I remember losing about a dozen ybs out of Thorsby Hall or Ollerton back in the 80's and then an odd funny one once every couple of years but now its a funny or bad race every couple of yb races.

Perhaps it isn't the groupings at fault - there are so many other things that have also changed - but we do need to look at the best options for getting EVERYBODYS birds back to keep most members happy and keep the WDA in as healthy position as we can.

Please note I said most members as you can't please everyone all the time. Whatever decision is made about groupings someone is always disadvantaged due to prevailing wind, local geography and pull - that's pigeon racing!

One thing the all up together argument has in its favour is that the birds have to make their own line and all heading North in the same direction but is that the best thing in the long run for ybs starting at Wakefield, especially for the front men who will get them dragged right over the top - then the debate starts again!

Reading Richard Boylin in the BHW the French organisation he is in changes racing route on a regular basis so nobody is continually disadvantaged. Perhaps this is something we could look at with changing groupings so nobody has a permanent disadvantage/advantage as this is an agenda (other than yb returns) that drives the annual debate.

I would be happy, and I'm sure a lot more members would, for a committee or working group to come up with a limited set of thought out and rationalised proposals for members to vote on, rather than the usual haggling and nonsense that goes on.

The question is how do we get to that situation in time for 2015 or do we have to propose it 2015 to start in 2016?

Clive Wright

Im pleased to see the interest generated by this topic. Like the Jews and Arabs something needs to be done someone must give a bit. 2016 lord it needs to be resolved before then Peters solution is the first i have seen fresh approach. Make the first 4 races no fed average points or even reduce the group races to 2.

HI CLIVE GREAT REPLY AND OF GREAT INTEREST,THE PROBLEM IS I DONT THINK ANY OF US HAS THE REAL ANSWER BUT IFF MEMBERS COULD ATTEND THEIR CLUB MEETINGS AND GET THESE PROPOSALS ON FED AGENDA WE MAY B ABLE TO TRY A DIFFERENT APPROACH.I HAVE SPOKEN TO QUITE A FEW FANCIERS FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY OVER THE WEEKEND AND MOST OF THEM ALL GOT FUNNY RACES WITH NO CLASHING OF ANY OTHER LIBS.

The Gateshead fed birds had almost 100 percent returns up at 715 from Weatherby I watched the race a lad in dunston had 50 birds out of 72in 10 mins the loft I was at had 20 out of 22 in 50 mins so they had a good race

We might have to try new things eg basket early Saturday morning race in the afternoon first Wakefield we would have skies to ourselves ,
Try south Feds start at Thursby hall north Feds Wakefield just ideas not saying they are perfect but worth discussing