richmond hs / Wakefield 1

No I have not made mistake with velocities ????..our birds must have stayed at site with Tyne / Derwent birds as tommy thinks theirs did not leave / convoyer states cleared well ....then where did these buggers get to ?

3 lofts sent 74 birds
1st...........j nelson..................1052
2nd..........j nelson..................987
3rd...........j nelson..................984
4th...........r Dixon...................979
5th...........r Dixon...................920
6th...........r Dixon...................916
7th...........c browne ...............793
8th...........c browne................759
Well 1st one over.....john has 14 missing at tea time ....Colin / Vince considering making this one there last ...Ray never said much ....
my own at DC slow but only 4 missing so big improvement
luggy at DC all home ..I & a at DC all but odd one !!!
14 lofts decided to miss first race ????? hope they get em going next week



Where's these videos of the libs at? Thought this was a rule passed at AGM? Funny how every stinker of a race conveniently there's no video footage, yet every half decent race there is???

These races are exactly why we wanted libs recorded so we (paying members) can understand what's going on. Not be told one thing when clearly somthing else has happend. At least if it was filmed and proof birds cleared on site then we know it's happend on route somewhere. So maybe give birds longer than 15 mins between libs. Looking at 50% returns on our gardens and not a single youngster back thismorning. Most of which have had 30-40 tosses downy to pontefract and were in immaculate condition.

I may be wrong. Maybe there was a video of lib as per AGM? Very much doubt it however. Hope they turn in for everyone.

Nevile B

Cockfield Consett birds reported dropping in with Tyne and Derwent most birds coming backover into Evenwood.

Once again we have had an erratic YB race from Wakefield.It happens every year and yet we still go there.In the past we raced from Pontefract and never had these problems.The other issue is liberation group with mixed north and south groups.The more sensible solution would be north/south split which would be a big help for the southerly clubs.

Sacriston Fed got a brilliant race, hard day but returns very good with just an odd couple missing

peter matthews's picture

Race was vidioed will be on bell your birds with sac fed their birds got back you explain to me why richmonds cant. You seem to be very opionated every week.

what is wrong with you man ! Read post again NO where do I express any opinion ...If I did it would be that as every year our birds go north as we are forced by our fed .(and forced is the correct word this year) to go in a group that contains the furthest flyers ( madness) But after last years posts on the subject Arty boy was / is adamant they don,t go up there But fail to leave wakefield area ??his opinion !!..if opinions given its because it is the right of every one / something fought for by my grand parents / and most others, to have this right.& will not be given up to you !!!!.. you have the opportunity to speak to me at rhs HQ when you collect our birds/ if you feel I have said anything out of order ? My birds were not on the WDA wagon for the reason stated above (groupings) as stated Richmond birds do not get back due to being pulled north /up at sacriston?????..hence twice the mileage & low vels./ losses .BUT that's just my opinion...May be the reason 13 other lofts never sent ??? resulting in loss of finance to club/ fed / wda ???????????? DC flying lads in our club report good returns ..may confirm our opinion / as in this set up (we) are the back markers / furthest flyers ..??? who knows ??

Opinions you go on pigeon land peter you'll se some opinions
when did alan talk about video? ?
You never mentioned tommy riddles opinion?

peter matthews's picture

Video bit was for streeter of above comment.he says 3c's birds dropping with there leading birds but they 15 mins behind libbed and doing same velocities. As every 1 can see perfect weather for race.didnt put in convoyers report about birds spewing up in baskets to me that poor on pigeonmans side.

Mr Bell,

the majority of the Federation members democratically exercised their right and voted to be liberated with Sacriston and Deerness Valley Federations. Incidentally the same Fed's we were liberated with last season (apart from having West Durham Federation in the group).

If you look at a map, Consett, Tyne & Derwent and Newcastle West are the most Northerly Feds in the WDA, not Deerness Valley and Sacriston Feds.

The pigeons left the site instantly as is seen on the video, but a large number never left West Yorkshire yet again, as they were already being reported in that area yesterday morning. The same as happens most seasons.

The problem isn't the liberation but the choice of lib site. We continually get poor racing from the 1st YB race out of Wakefield with North or East in the wind. Ask the NEHU office and fanciers in the Wakefield area and you get the same answer "majority of pigeons reported never left the Wakefield area as they are running up and down the local valleys all day".

From the first Wakefield yb race
1997 Darlington Fed sent 1,281 ybs (24 hour delay in marking)
1998 Darlington Fed sent 1,972 ybs
1999 Darlington Fed sent 1,746 ybs
2000 Darlington Fed sent 1,895 ybs
2001 Darlington Fed sent 1,719 ybs
2002 Darlington Fed sent 1,804 ybs

2007 it was down to 978 ybs
2010 it was down to 521 ybs
2011 it was up to 1,093 ybs
2012 it was 894 ybs
2013 it was 572 ybs
2014 it was 679 ybs

it won't be many this year either, members are not sending or only sending part teams and then we get a slightly better race from the second Wakefield, but not a lot better some years and pigeons that survived the first experience are lost from their second. It is a self fulfilling prophesy, the fewer sent, the less wishing to strike for home and the tougher the race.

What is noticeable is the length of time to get the Club and Fed results filled in certain winds (never mind the time taken to get even half people's teams home).

In 2011 in a N/W wind it took 10 minutes to fill the Fed sheet' s 20 places.
In 2012 when liberated with the South half of the Amal it took 30 minutes to get the result filled in East End and 20 minutes to fill the Fed result with 20 pigeons. (That is precisely why the majority of the Federation are against being liberated in a North South split. As from a short Westerly point with East in the wind they were miles off town).

In 2013 it took eight minutes in "No Wind" to fill the 20 places on the Fed result.
In 2014 it took eight minutes in "No Wind" to fill the 20 places on the Fed result.

Again this week with North in the wind it has been disastrous and it took 39 minutes to get 6 pigeons back in East End H.S.

It is no good blaming the transporter/Convoyer/grouping as it is obvious certain winds turn Wakefield into a Bermuda Triangle.

Before you pass further comment about how good the race in the Durham Combine was, I suggest you actually speak to members of the Durham Combine about their race. (For most it was the same as Darlington Fed got).
You do not race in the Durham Combine as last drop as you infer in your earlier post but instead fly in the Roman Road HS, with a single liberation as a club. (The shortest flying organisation in the NEHU), from Wakefield, (which as you said yourself earlier in the year on here "is a training toss for some members.") It is 40 something miles to the members.
There is a big difference between a race when liberated with other Feds as happens in the Durham Combine and West Durham Amalgamation and what is in effect a club training toss.

In the same conditions at similar lib times the youngsters from the UNC liberations from Sandhutton, Wetherby and Pontefract tumbled in with many lofts having most home in a short space of time and competitive racing. Bubwith had difficult racing for some but no where near as difficult as ours.

However, this site is for the West Durham Amalgamation and racing/results/information going etc. and news from the NEHU relevant to the WDA and its members, (not the DC/NNA/UNC etc.), it is the racing in the West Durham Amalgamation we should be looking to improve.

Things will never improve with regard to the racing and returns from the first young bird race unless we change the one consistent element in every difficult first YB race since 1997 (as that is my first season racing in the WDA,) Ray Kellet states they used to fall in from Pontefract, it's time we moved site and looked to see if it improves things, one thing is for sure - if things do not alter things we will continue to get what we deserve and can only blame ourselves.


Mr Fawcett
knowing the way proposals passed at FED agm. were over turned at a Finance meeting 2 weeks later by un mandated delegates/ without going back to members ...with what was an invite ...NOT a proposal that was not on any do you arrive at the fact every one exercised there democratic right ? yes you is right we in similar groups as last year ....and now we can confir we have had the same result ...!!!!!.
sorry my geography is lacking but to far north is to far north ? don,t disagree they cleared site well ..we disagree on where they went.??
can not agree that wakefield is the problem we train from there these trainers manage to leave area ...R Road birds (200) approx. libbed similar time / same weather etc minimal losses these few left ok .. but large libs with 2000 birds you claim can not find way out ?
birdage is down as you show ? we know sport is shrinking / and lofts fearful of groups and the last two years results .as we know a huge loss to clubs/feds/ amal finances
you say less bird s the tougher the race /a self fulfilling prophesy ......this was proved NOT to be the case we only had 200
nobody blamed convoyer / or transporter .......But as you know I walked away from flying with WDA with ybirds with groups pushed through/ not being clever but simply could not face losses on the scale seen the last two seasons / this decision made Febuary 2015 because the writing was on the wall...then.!!!!..not an easy decision I have flown with DDfed / wda for over 37 years (correct I don,t look old enough)
OK we don,t fly with DC / convoyed with them ..same wagon, same day, same weather, as you say they got bashed. But our tiny group did not ? its 50 mile to our lads / not sure what you imply if as you say the lib point is the problem / & getting away from it ....what difference does the distance to home make.?
However........ I am a WDA member / the lads mentioned flying at R road are WDA members // & the post you have replied to was for a club in the WDA all paid up members /
we have only ever tried as a club to improve racing in our club in WDA....Remember we proposed single lib at AGM you voted against / stomped all over us !!!!!!!! on your last post you suggest to Brian now after the event you want single lib .from Ponte..sure the fed voted race the last sentence you wrote above says it all ..................................../we tried to change things / tried to be proactive/.....remember you stopped us !!where ever you race from I truly hope 99% of bird return in good time hope is the Brains in the WDA will sort something out / I look forward to racing YBirds with WDA when it is .or after the group stage as is 2015..( hope some of this makes sense ? )

Great read Stuart interesting facts nobody can argue with facts!

For the last 2 years we have had a special meeting to discuss yb racing,I stated at the WDA AGM in January that as we had not changed anything it would be the same again. 2 delegates[S.Fawcett and A.Todd] at the meeting stated the hazards of racing from Wakefield and where do we take our ybs for the 1st 2 races?
Streeter claims their ybs have had up to 40 tosses from PONTEFRACT, so why are we going to Wakefield
We would be racing from Pontefract and Darlington would have a single lib cos I'm sick of trying to survive the 1st 4 races until they are all up together, I sent 38 to wakefield, 18 had the night out and still 12 missing, I will probably loss another 15 this week, If you live in Darlington you live in fear of the 1st 2 races and it does not matter how much training you've had you will loss them, God only knows what the Richmond lads go through

There is nothing wrong with wakefield The problem lies with grouping.Consilitory men prepared to move for the greater good. Will be prepared to be liberated in 2 groups north south or even east west. You voted for what you have and its backfired again. Now we will be looking at 7 liberations as each fed asks for single libs. Is it the West Durham Amal. It would appear not.

Actually Darlingtons original proposal was ybs all up together, but thats not going to happen because your consilitory men as you call them are scared to death their line of flight will change and they may not win, I've stated on here before that winning is now more important than the good of the pigeons, Why do Consett always propose 3cs, 2cs or single lib, why do WD Fed want to go with N'castle and T/D, AP, ALL TO DO WITH LINE OF FLIGHT, high side, low side and winning.
Frank, my ybs get the same feed as my obs, 3 high quality widowhood corns mixed together with additions as and when I think they need them, they do 4&5 hours on the wing no problem, If you think they are clashing and they are getting ours in how come I don't get any of theirs?
I speak to a lot of convoyers on a Saturday morning, they want to avoid us and the UNC or do you think they all just turn up and liberate regardless, The RPRA now have a dedicated web site for convoyers and its continually updated on a Saturday morning,THERE IS NO REASON FOR CLASHING IN THIS DAY AND AGE, One of the convoyers phoned me Sunday to say he had a DAR, WD AND EC ybs drop into his place late Saturday night and said there was loads of our birds in the area, he is 5 miles from Leeds/ Bradford airport. he said the 3 ybs were no worse for wear and he would liberate them at Harrogate
Bye the way Joe we have 10 feds in the WDA so if we have 7 single libs the 3cs must be up together

Brian West Durham originally wanted all up together this was nocked on the head then when we asked to join Darlington group we were refused so we were left with the three C s or the group we have now. I personally would love for the groups to be abandoned an liberate all together. We had a fed meeting last night and all would have been in favour off all up together.

Good post Brian.I sympathise with you as others are in the same boat. I dropped 2 but the rest were coming all day from every direction in fact many were coming from out of the west to me and there are not many lofts further west than me. I have checked my records and we changed from Pontefract to Wakefield in 1996.Don't know as we had more than 10 good years racing from there.My vote would be go back to Pontefract and have Cockfield Fed libbed with Darlington.At least that would give theRichmond lads half a chance.

RockDove's picture

Why was the switch made from Pontefract to Wakefield in 1996? Bad races from Pontefract?

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

I think we are all off course here . These birds are clashing with
other organisations its something they have to learn by experience they will clash probably three times a race for the
next three years but the problem is while they are learning.We
could race on a Sat Afternoon for three races. But bear in mind
they still have to learn. The most important thing i think is to feed the birds more protein and help them to do the extra distances maybe down to nottingham and back some have said
what are we doing different ? ill tell you we are feeding Duperatif.
Gerry Pluss. Barly. We didn,t use them when we had no problems
finally stop blaming other people or close this website.

RockDove's picture

I think there's something in what you say. One of the big changes in recent years is the reduction in the use of the transporter for training young birds. These tosses used to start at fairly short distances and gave the birds a taste of the excitement of a big liberation while still near to home. Now the only experience many of them have before the first race is of flying from A to B in a small flock.

Perhaps those who did train their YBs on the transporter could comment on how they fared in the first race.

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

Yet again some good ideas but as Brian has already said come the meetings nothing is done.
I went to Wakefield two years ago to pick a young bird up and was told by the fancier who had the bird a similar story that some days birds don't leave the area so maybe the race point needs looking at.

Ask Paul Stobbs his opinion on Wakefield as a racepoint. He will tell you exactly what I am saying.

There was no clashing on Saturday. Large numbers of the convoy don't clear.

We would go to Pontefract for a single lib Saturday Brian as we can't carry on like this.

Mr Dunkley lives2 mikes from our lib site at Wakefield he reported 11 west Durham birds last year alone. He can't understand why we lib from that site he calls it a graveyard.I can supply his phone no if you want to speak to him.
I have mentioned this idea for a few years and mentioned it last year to Brian Ford.
First young bird race centre mark Saturday morning say 8 till 10 transporter picks up at fed centres get down to lib site for say 1 to 130 give the birds an hour to settle liberate if poss 230 to 3 o'clock .
Brian received a phone call from Hull federation last year who tried this for there first two by races from Seaham harbour 100 per cent returns after wanting to try it after many years of losing lots of young birds .I know it's not what everybody wants but I think we need to think outside the box and try new ideas

RockDove's picture

What does your proposed solution (basket on Saturday morning, liberate Saturday afternoon) have to do with your perceived problem (Wakefield is "a graveyard").

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

Talking about in general which ever point we go to not specifically Wakefield
Alan Todd

RockDove's picture

Did Mr Dunkley go into details about why he thought Wakefield was a graveyard for us?

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

He doesn't need to look at returns over the last 3 seasons in general not just on group


RockDove's picture

Thanks Richard for taking the time to set these returns out for us. It certainly puts things in a different perspective. I got 9 from 11 up here. Maybe those having problems should look closer to home, at their training methods and the health of their birds. I'll bet the vomiting seen by Peter Matthews wasn't in the West Auckland baskets.

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

Had young bird sickness 5 weeks ago
Left the birds in the loft for 1 week 15 training tosses been on transporter only lost 2 training out of 74 young birds 20 missing from 64 sent .Not saying this as a loser I won my club from just under 500 birds the first group generally took a hiding why? Not criticising anybody looking for reasons .
It may be different this week if other groups take a hiding.It not a case of I'm alright stuff everybody else
Look at velocity differences some clubs doing under 1100 spoke to a loft on Saturday 39 minutes to fill first 6.....50 percent missing on the day on his allotments yes some had good returns majority didn't our fed had about 50 percent back after 1 hour see Tommy Riddle statement

Were any old hens present to try and pull the youngsters away/drive them home? I think there are so many factors mentioned that all contribute to these bad races. What we had so far?
Feeding methods
Sick birds in baskets
Not enough training/experience in big liberations
Bad liberation points geographically (surrounded by valleys heading south that birds seem unable to escape from once in)
Possible raptor attacks
Clashing/racing at peak times.
Not enough time between libs
To many small libs instead of all up together
North/south divide East/west divide not working
Have I missed any?
All the above show what we are against.
What has changed in the last 5 year to combat these issues?

The problem is CHANGE. Or lack of it. How will this sport of ours survive? I feel it's days are limited year on year.

Scroll back to this time last year. The messages on here are like a mirror word for word. Why? CHANGE.

Don't vote or vote for same shit year on year. Don't come on here piping off.

Personally if they were all up together i would be far happier getting birds pulled up here my the majority and been reported in the locality. But when birds are flying the race distance in the opposite direction to home or not even leaving lib site. Then something is sadly wrong.


Doncaster has no lib site, we as an organisation are limited to the number of race points we can use due to our size.
Rotherham was discounted as not big enough earlier this year.

We can't just vote to go to race points as they are in the area we want to race from or we will end up with another "Boves" scenario.

The race points where we get poor racing regularly should just be removed as options to vote for.
The NEHU Secretary will confirm exactly where large numbers of WDA youngsters are reported at the end of July, early August. It is usually n or far from Wakefield.

I would personally race Wetherby twice even though it is short and give them a clear run rather than one of the group's (or more) getting a towsing out of Wakefield as continually happens. The time T & D Fed got flattered the other year Darlington got a great race. It's not acceptable that we as an organisation are losing the future of members lofts year after year early in the YB programme and as a result have less revenue from birdage.

Ray - Pontefract was deemed no longer suitable as the trees adjacent to the entrance road lthe pigeons are liberated from grew to large and impeded the pigeons exiting transporters.
The UNC can only liberate one transporter at a time and with two vehicles on site one has to move out after liberation to let the next one to set up for liberation.

There is a field on the left hand side after the entrance but it is locked so access would have to be agreed with the race course owners (if they will let the WDA use the site).

In answer to your suggestion Stephen, I took a long hard look in the mirror before I even thought of training. Full bacterial tests, worm, cocci count checks and swabs taken both ends from a number of pigeons and checked 5 weeks ago and again 12 days before the first race with a clean bill of health given. That testing being carried out by a professional Avian Veterinary surgeon (not by a painter & decorator/plastered/hairdresser with a microscope and medicine to sell).
They have had four weeks of training and the last two weeks from Rainton and Dishforth. Two of those were liberated with 4/500 other pigeons going as far up as Ferryhilll/Spennymoor to teach them to break out and experience being liberated with a large number of pigeons to prepare them for Saturday gone. I had 40 of the 41 youngsters pass that educational period without or problem.
Those that are left are still in good health, perfect droppings and fully functioning digestive tract.

I was 2nd and 3rd Club but am missing more the than I can believe possible and they are no where near as the two that turned in Sunday came singly from the South at 09:15 and 11:16.

I can't answer for the rest of the Amalgamation but I am missing nestpairs from pigeons that have bred Fed winners for ourselves and friends and in some cases bred winners every year. That were in good health and prepared well.

It happens time and time again and we have to alter something rather than blaming the Convoyer/transporter/groups etc.

At least from a lib site in a flat area like Wetherby the convoy cannot try to duck out of the wind and the healthy and fit one's Will break for home.

The lads at the top end of the Amalgamation such as Tommy Riddle will no doubt confirm that the Scotttish Feds get exactly the same catastrophic races from Consett in certain winds as we do from Wakefield, where the part of the convoy that is perhaps not fully prepared/in less than perfect health try to evade the head wind and take the whole liberation into the valley. With the result smaller groups then breaking out for home through the day and the remainder running up and down until exhausted.

It's not just the unprepared or unhealthy ones that get exhausted and go down in these situations. I have collected a youngster of ours from the Wakefield area from a poor first race only to win Huntingdon with him five weeks later.


It's not a case of coming on here and piping off, it's trying to get people to accept there is a problem with Wakefield and that change is needed and the membership need to help achieve it.

I have been saying for the last five years there is a problem with Wakefield as our delegate to Fed meetings and to the Amal Secretary (as he is our Fed Chairman). I also (along with Alan Todd) have raised at WDA meetings/Special meetings the information from the locals as to the unsuitability of Wakefield to race from.
While the majority vote "same as last year" that is precisely what we get.

My view is if the Chief Convoyer deems a race point unsuitable (as he feels it is off line/he is unable to consistently deliver acceptable racing from there) it is withdrawn and an alternative identified to go to the membership to be voted on.

I proposed at our Fed that old birds be allowed to be sent to the first YB races, it was passed but none were sent.


Our sport, may be the only one were we don't see the beginning middle infact the only part viewed by the competitor is the end. We know of accidents birds hitting wires. Birds being set about by raptors,This having a double barrelled effect insofar as the bird taken is killed maimed or struck into plus those around it scatter to the four winds. Then across the liberation site I see 3 transporters waiting to go so an eliment of clashing comes into the equation. This is only us the UNC. DC GYA. The bulk coming this way then the Hull pigeons Then the Werever bird and the Scots haven't got here yet. Wakefield is a perfectly acceptable racepoint cast back to 4/4/15 Same racepoint no losses.What has occurred is your groups didn't work out inspite of only 3 groups they remain too weak to deal with the influx of other racing traffic.We can all speculate as to what gives, realistically its all guess work.

RockDove's picture

It's worth studying the map though. What may be good race point for OBs may not be for YBs. If a group go charging off westwards, out of fear, excitement or whatever, within 25 miles/half an hour they have crossed the Pennine ridge and are dropping down towards Manchester. It makes a lot of sense to build in a bigger margin for error for the YBs by finding a site further east where they can make a bit of a mistake at the start and still be in a relative safe area.

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

Totally agree Stuart. Can't disagree with any point you've made at all, shame at the meetings it all falls on deaf ears. The piping off part was merely meant as no good folk coming on complaining when every year they vote for the same. All I can say is there are those that have had a good race and seem to think it's others that aren't up to scratch. It will just be a matter of time like every year until the shoes on the other foot.
2013 both Wakefields were stinkers
2014 most left off first race due to 2013s and first wake field wasn't to bad. Second Wakefield of 2014 was a wipe out when more sent again.
2015 it's a mixed bag but probably a bad one over all.
It will probably be a shocker this weekend, weakened birds who probably havnt even been loft flying so far this week never mind training due to weather but will be sent down the road regardless.
What's the process on liberation sites? Surely a suitable farmers field can be found freshley combined, better geographical location, no hazards such as trees wires probably a damn site cheaper aswell. etc etc. Or do these sites have to be approved by a governing body. Could feds not be spilt North and South like UNC and race from two race points. All things to consider.

What concerns me most is the refusal from some to accept "Houston, we have a problem".

It is not clashing as some insist, there was nothing for them to clash with on Saturday.

If Feds at Wetherby, Pontefract and Sandhutton are all reporting great returns in the first hour and Fed results are filled in two minutes why are the members of the WDA not prepared to change the once consistent factor in every poor first or second young bird race since 1996? Why are they still accepting getting large losses and poor races?

Take a look at East Cleveland Feds first Bubwith result, 50 the clocked in three minutes. We should all be expecting/getting that sort of racing early doors so the youngsters are happy and confident should they clash with North Road organisations when we start to cross over from the third race. Now they are potentially ready for Prozac after two races and have their confidence shot to pieces.
The three largest North Road Feds have shrank noticeably as well, Notts NR Fed used to send 6,000 pigeons, if they get a thousand pigeons it's a good send. The two Peterborough Feds are the same, the Central Fed has gone from 2,000+ to 7/800 max and the District Fed have gone from 6,000+ to a max of 1,800 pigeons and apart from a couple of early races also now race from Coastal race points. A large number of die-hard North Road clubs and fanciers have turned South and there is no longer the traffic we used to meet week on week heading South.

Brian as Secretary and Peter as Chief Convoyer liase with these and many other organisations to avoid clashing. However if our pigeons don't leave the locale where they were let go they will clash with pigeons they should never have seen if they had left for home.

Comments like "hope someone sorts it before next year" are not going to change anything as until club's propose/vote for change we will get what we have always got.


RockDove's picture

Perhaps our officials (President, Secretary, Chief Convoyer and any interested vice-presidents) could get together straight after racing to review the season, identify where problems have arisen and recommend a revised programme for the following year. This recommendation (with explanatory information about any changes) could then be passed to clubs for approval. If the members agree it would go forward as the club's choice. This wouldn't stop clubs putting forward other proposals if they wanted to, but at least the members could weigh different ideas against the official recommendation. Go on, tell me why this isn't a good idea.....

Stephen Guthrie
(Tow Law HS)

What next as this clearly not only killed off our yb season ? at RHS but has resulted in worse returns than last two years ?? mainly across the board !